The US is in a ‘really deep hole right now,’ expert says. По словам эксперта, США сейчас находятся в «очень глубокой яме»
Расшифровка видео
0:04
♪
0:04
DONLEY WAS IN THE BUILDING.
0:05
WE STARTED, WE TOOK DOWN OUR
0:08
PRIDE FLAGS.
0:08
I TOOK OUT ANY BOOKS I THOUGHT
0:10
WOULD BE INCRIMINATING.
0:12
NO ONE WAS TALKING.
0:12
WE HEARD THEY STARTED TAKING
0:14
TRANSCRIPTS AUTOMATICALLY OF ALL
0:16
OUR GOOGLE MEET.
0:19
THEY UNPLUGGED THE NEWS IN THE
0:20
LITTLE KITCHEN GALLY.
0:22
IT DIDN’T FEEL GOOD.
0:24
Laura: ALL RIGHT.
0:25
WELL, YOU HAVE HEARD THE SOB
0:27
STORIES.
0:27
THEY ARE QUITE ENTERTAINING AT
0:29
TIMES.
0:29
THE MEDIA, THEY CONTINUE TO
0:30
SPREAD THIS STORY THAT DOGE IS
0:32
SOME DARK, MYSTERIOUS
0:34
ORGANIZATION.
0:35
YOU KNOW, EMBEDDING ITSELF IN
0:37
DEPARTMENTS LIKE SOME JACK
0:38
BOOTED THUGS, INTIMIDATING
0:40
STAFF.
0:41
THREATENING THOSE THAT DON’T
0:42
COMPLY.
0:43
OKAY.
0:43
WE’RE ASKING WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
0:44
WELL, TONIGHT, WE SIT DOWN
0:46
EXCLUSIVELY WITH ONE OF THE MEN
0:48
RESPONSIBLE FOR TURNING ELON
0:49
MUSK’S DOGE PLANS INTO REALITY.
0:51
JOINING ME NOW IS SAM CORK
0:54
COAST, A SPECIAL ADVISER WITHIN
0:56
THE U.S. TREASURY DEPARTMENT CEO
0:58
AND CO-FOUNDER OF LEVELS WHICH
0:59
IS A REALLY COOL HEALTH AND
1:02
WELLNESS SOFTWARE COMPANY.
1:04
ALSO JOINING ME GETTING SECOND
1:07
BILLING TONIGHT TREASURY
1:08
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT.
1:09
WE WILL GET BACK TO YOU IN A
1:10
ELEMENT NO.
1:10
SAM, LET’S START WITH YOU NO ONE
1:16
KNOWS MUCH ABOUT ALL OF YOU GUYS
1:17
WHO WORK TOGETHER.
1:18
I KNOW YOU WORK AT TREASURY NOW.
1:20
TELL US WHAT BROUGHT YOU HERE
1:22
INTO WASHINGTON AND WHAT YOUR
1:24
TOP PRIORITY IS.
1:24
I HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN TO
1:26
LOOK AT THE IRS’S MODERNIZATION
1:28
PROGRAM IN PARTICULAR AS WELL AS
1:29
THE OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE
1:32
BUDGET.
1:32
I REALLY CARE A LOT ABOUT THIS
1:34
COUNTRY.
1:34
AND THIS IS A HUGE PROGRAM
1:36
THAT’S CURRENTLY 30 YEARS BEHIND
1:39
SCHEDULE AND IT’S ALREADY
1:41
$15 BILLION OVER BUDGET.
1:43
Laura: WAIT A SECOND EXPLAIN
1:48
TO OUR VIEWERS WHAT THE PROGRAM
1:49
IS IN LAYMAN’S TERMS.
1:50
THE GOAL IS TO TAKE — THE
1:52
IRS HAS LEGACY INFRASTRUCTURE.
1:54
ACTUALLY VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT
1:56
BANKS HAVE BEEN USING.
1:57
IT’S OLD MAIN FRAMES RUNNING
2:01
COBALT AND ASSEMBLY.
2:03
HOW WE MIGRATE THAT TO A MODERN
2:05
SYSTEM.
2:06
VIRTUALLY EVERY BANK HAS DOWN
2:07
THIS.
2:07
WE ARE STILL USING A LOT OF
2:08
THOSE SAME SYSTEMS.
2:11
A FEW YEARS, MAYBE A FEW
2:15
HUNDREDS MILLION DOLLARS
2:16
WEERNTION ARE 35 YEARS INTO THIS
2:17
PROGRAM.
2:17
WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN — IF YOU
2:19
ASK THEM NOW IT’S FIVE YEARS
2:20
AWAY.
2:21
AND IT’S BEEN FIVE YEARS AWAY
2:23
SINCE 1990.
2:23
SUPPOSED TO BE DELIVERED IN
2:26
1996.
2:26
AND IT’S STILL FIVE YEARS AWAY.
2:28
Laura: IN YOUR AREA OF
2:30
EXPERTISE, THAT INFORMS YOUR
2:32
ABILITY TO DO THIS REVIEW IS
2:34
WHAT?
2:34
I’M A SOFTWARE DEVELOPER BY
2:36
BACKGROUND AND I’M THE CEO OF A
2:38
SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY COMPANY.
2:40
Laura: WHEN YOU CAME INTO THE
2:41
DEPARTMENT, THE FIRST THING DO
2:41
YOU IS JUST GET INTO THE GUTS OF
2:43
THE SYSTEM AND SEE HOW IT
2:44
OPERATES?
2:44
YEAH, REALLY TALK TO THE
2:47
SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS.
2:48
TALK TO THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND
2:49
AND WHAT THEY ARE SEEING.
2:50
I THINK ONE ENCOURAGING THING IS
2:53
WE ACTUALLY HAVE QUITE A LOT OF
2:54
SOFTWARE TALENT ON THE GROUND.
2:56
PEOPLE WRITING CODE.
2:57
WE ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF GOOD
2:59
PEOPLE ALMOST ALWAYS THE CASE
3:00
BHI ASK THEM WHAT THE CORRECT
3:02
ANSWER IS HOW DO WE SOLVE THESE
3:03
PROBLEMS?
3:03
THEY ARE ALMOST ALWAYS RIGHT.
3:05
WHICH IS GOOD.
3:05
THEY JUST HAVEN’T BEEN IN A
3:06
POSITION TO BE EMPOWERED TO MAKE
3:08
THOSE DECISIONS.
3:09
SO, I’M ACTUALLY PRETTY
3:11
OPTIMISTIC THAT WE CAN SOLVE
3:13
THIS.
3:13
Laura: SECRETARY BESSENT, WHY
3:14
HAS THIS TAKEN SO LONG?
3:16
I MEAN, SAM SEEMS, OBVIOUSLY,
3:19
VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL, EXTREMELY
3:21
INTELLIGENT.
3:21
BUT I ASSUME WE HAVE OTHER SAMES
3:23
IN THE UNITED STATES?
3:24
WE COULD HAVE HAD A SAM 15 YEARS
3:27
AGO COME IN AND FIX.
3:28
THIS WHAT IS GOING ON?
3:29
WELL, LAURA, YOU’VE BEEN IN
3:31
D.C. A LONG TIME.
3:32
I HAVE BEEN HERE 8 WEEKS.
3:33
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS — ONE OF
3:35
THE BIGGEST SURPRISES FOR ME IS
3:37
SEEING HOW THESE ENTRENCHED
3:40
INTERESTS JUST KEEP CONSTRICTING
3:42
THEMSELVES AROUND THE POWER
3:44
AROUND THE MONEY, AROUND THE
3:46
SYSTEMS, AND NOBODY CARES.
3:48
I MEAN, I SAID TO SAM TODAY I
3:51
SAID THE IRS SYSTEM WAS —
3:54
SUPPOSED TO BE DELIVERED IN
3:57
1996.
3:57
AND HE SAID NO, BUT IT WAS
3:59
STARTED IN 1990.
4:01
THAT’S HOW FAR BEHIND THEY ARE.
4:02
AND NOBODY CARES.
4:04
AND, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER THING
4:05
WE ARE SEEING, TOO AS SAM SAID,
4:07
SOME OF THE EMPLOYEES, MANY OF
4:09
THE EMPLOYEES ARE FANTASTIC.
4:10
IT’S THIS CONSULTANT GROUP WHO
4:13
HAS JUST — THEY ARE LIKE A BOA
4:16
CONSTRICTOR.
4:16
THEY ARE LIKE A PYTHON.
4:18
THEY HAVE GOT THEMSELVES.
4:25
Laura: NO PUN INTENDED IT.
4:26
IT WAS INTENDED.
4:28
THEY CONSTRICT THEMSELVES AROUND
4:30
OUR GOVERNMENT.
4:31
AND THE COSTS ARE UNBELIEVABLE.
4:33
THAT ARE BEING PASSED ONTO THE
4:35
AMERICAN TAXPAYER.
4:37
Laura: SAM, YOU COME IN FROM
4:39
THIS TECH COMPANY.
4:40
YOU HAVE BEEN DIRECTING
4:42
ENGINEERING TEAMS.
4:43
HAVE YOU BEEN DOING YOUR OWN
4:44
CODING AND SOFTWARE ENGINEERING
4:46
FOR SOME YEARS.
4:47
BUT YOU COME IN HERE AND YOU SEE
4:49
THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST
4:51
IMPORTANT DEPARTMENTS IN THE
4:54
WORLD, NOT JUST IN AUER
4:55
GOVERNMENT.
4:55
IN THE WORLD.
4:56
AND YOU SEE HOW THIS HAS BEEN
4:59
ORGANIZED AND RUN FOR SO MANY
5:02
YEARS.
5:02
AS A HUMAN BEING, FORGET WHAT IS
5:04
YOUR REACTION TO THAT?
5:07
IT’S —
5:08
Laura: WERE YOU STUNNED AS I
5:10
AM JUST HEARING ABOUT THIS?
5:12
YEAH.
5:12
IT’S HARD TO REALLY GRASP THE
5:15
SCALE OF THIS.
5:15
BECAUSE WE PROCESS AT THE IRS
5:16
ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF DATA AS
5:19
A MID SIZE BANK.
5:21
AND A TYPICAL MID SIZE BANK WILL
5:23
HAVE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 1 AND 200
5:25
PEOPLE IN IT AND THEY HAVE AN
5:27
OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE
5:28
BUDGET IN LIKE THE $20 MILLION A
5:30
YEAR RANGE.
5:31
WE HAVE 8,000 PEOPLE IN IT IN
5:34
OUR OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE
5:36
BUDGET IS $3.5 BILLION A YEAR.
5:39
I DON’T REALLY KNOW WHY YET.
5:40
BUT I WILL TELL THAT YOU 80% OF
5:42
THAT BUDGET GOES TO CONTRACTORS
5:44
AND LICENSES.
5:45
Laura: SO THE CONTRACTORS AND
5:47
PUTTING THESE PROJECTS OUT TO
5:49
BID, MR. SECRETARY, HOW BIG A
5:51
PROBLEM HAS THAT BEEN?
5:53
WELL, CLEARLY IT’S A PROBLEM.
5:56
AND THAT’S WHY WHEN YOU AND I
5:58
WERE TALKING THE OTHER NIGHT,
5:59
THAT’S WHY I WANTED TO BRING SAM
6:00
IN BECAUSE I JUST HAD GOTTEN A
6:03
BRIEFING FROM HIM.
6:03
AND MY JAW HIT THE GROUND WHEN
6:05
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE COST.
6:08
THE TIMELINE.
6:09
AS YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT IT
6:11
BEFORE.
6:11
I HAVE THREE PRIORITIES WITH THE
6:13
IRS, COLLECTIONS, PRIVACY, AND
6:16
CUSTOMER SERVICE.
6:17
AND NONE OF THOSE ARE BEING
6:21
WELL-SERVED.
6:21
LOOK AT THE SCALE OF THIS.
6:23
Laura: AND, SAM, FOR
6:24
AMERICANS WATCHING THIS TONIGHT,
6:25
WHO HAVE HEARD ALL THESE STORIES
6:27
ABOUT THE PEOPLE BROUGHT IN TO
6:30
DISMANTLE THE GOVERNMENT AND RIP
6:32
IT APART AND DESTROY PEOPLE’S
6:33
LIVES.
6:34
YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THIS.
6:35
YOU HAVE A LOT OF PRIORITIES IN
6:38
THE BUSINESS WORLD, BUT, AGAIN,
6:40
LIKE MUSK AND PEOPLE EVEN
6:41
YOUNGER THAN YOU WHO CAME IN,
6:42
THEY GOT THE WORLD ON A STRING.
6:45
SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE
6:47
PEOPLE WHO ARE HEARING ALL THESE
6:50
FRIGHTENING STORIES ABOUT WHAT
6:51
YOU AND THE DOGE BROS AS THEY
6:53
ARE CALLED, ARE DOING?
6:55
YEAH.
6:56
THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT ON MY
6:58
BINGO CARD FOR THIS YEAR.
7:00
I WAS VERY MUCH PLANNING TO
7:02
FOCUS ON COMPANY.
7:03
WE HAVE A 15-MONTH-OLD BOY
7:04
THAT’S BEEN REALLY FUN.
7:05
WE ARE — I GOT A LOT OF FRIENDS
7:07
OF MINE IN THE ADMINISTRATION
7:08
TELLING ME HOW SERIOUS THIS
7:10
SITUATION IS.
7:11
AND SO I’M TAKING SOME TIME TO
7:12
REALLY FOCUS ON THIS.
7:14
I THINK IT IS — IT IS A HUGE
7:16
PART OF OUR GOVERNMENT.
7:17
IT’S COLLECTING TAXES.
7:18
WE CANNOT PERFORM THE BASIC
7:20
FUNCTIONS OF TAX COLLECTION
7:21
WITHOUT PAYING A TOLL TO ALL
7:23
THESE CONTRACTORS.
7:24
WE REALLY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW
7:26
TO GET OUT OF THIS HOLE.
7:27
WE ARE IN A REALLY DEEP 408
7:28
RIGHT NOW.
7:31
Laura: IRS EMPLOYEES
7:32
ACCORDING TO CNN CLAIM THAT YOU
7:33
WERE BASICALLY IGNORANT ABOUT
7:34
HOW THE AGENCY WORKS.
7:36
LIKE YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO KNOW
7:37
EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU GOT THERE
7:38
THAT’S WHAT THEY ARE SAYING,
7:39
YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
7:40
YEAH.
7:41
I MEAN, THERE IS A LOT OF STUFF
7:42
THAT I DON’T KNOW THAT I’M
7:43
LEARNING NOW.
7:44
I THINK I KNOW A LOT ABOUT
7:45
SOFTWARE SYSTEMS.
7:46
THAT’S WHY I WAS BROUGHT IN.
7:47
THAT’S THE MAIN FOCUS IS HOW DO
7:49
WE TURN THIS AROUND?
7:50
WE HAVE A THREE AND A HALF
7:51
BILLION DOLLARS OPERATIONS
7:53
MAINTENANCE BUDGET.
7:54
WE HAVE $3.07 MODERNIZATION
7:58
EFFORT WITHIN IT.
7:59
THAT’S A LOT OF BUDGET AND WAY
8:01
BEYOND ANY REASONABLE COST FOR
8:02
WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT AT A
8:04
PRIVATE COMPANY FOR THIS.
8:05
WHAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST
8:08
SURPRISE.
8:08
YOU, AGAIN, SECRETARIES BESSENT,
8:10
BEEN IN THE BUSINESS WORLD AS
8:12
WELL, HE HEARD IT FROM ME.
8:13
BUT, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW, THIS
8:15
WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST SURPRISE
8:16
THAT YOU FOUND AT THAT
8:18
DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY?
8:19
I WOULD SAY IT’S THE
8:21
DISCONNECT BETWEEN LEADERSHIP
8:22
AND THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOING
8:23
THE WORK IS A BIG ONE.
8:25
I WOULD SAY THAT THERE ARE — IT
8:28
DOESN’T TAKE A LOT.
8:29
JUST SOMEBODY WHO CARES TO SOLVE
8:31
THESE PROBLEMS.
8:32
YOU FIND CONTRACTS THAT ARE 10,
8:34
20, 30, $50 MILLION AND YOU JUST
8:36
ASK LIKE WHY ARE WE DOING THIS?
8:38
AND THEY ARE LIKE I DON’T KNOW.
8:39
AND THEN YOU CANCEL IT AND THEN
8:41
NOTHING HAPPENS.
8:43
THIS INERTIA HAS TAKEN OVER.
8:46
Laura: OKAY.
8:47
I’M SO FRUSTRATED HEARING THIS
8:48
BUT I’M SO GLAD YOU ARE GETTING
8:50
YOUR HANDS DIRTY BY GETTING IN
8:53
THERE.
8:54
MR. SECRETARY, SAGE COMES FROM
8:55
THE OUTSIDE WORLD.
8:56
HE IS VERY KEEN.
8:58
I’M READING HIS BIO AND WHAT HE
8:59
HAS DONE ON TIME MANAGEMENT.
9:01
THAT’S HOW HE HAS BEEN SO
9:03
SUCCESSFUL MANAGING 15-MINUTE
9:05
INCREMENTS OF HIS TIME.
9:06
ANALYZING IT.
9:07
SO HE IS DATA DRIVEN.
9:08
THIS SHOULD BE A DATA DRIVEN
9:10
AGENCY.
9:10
YOU ARE A MONEY GUY.
9:11
HAVE YOU MADE BILLIONS OF
9:12
DOLLARS IN THE BUSINESS WORLDS
9:13
BECAUSE YOU ARE DATA DRIVEN.
9:15
WHY IS THIS CONTROVERSIAL TO
9:16
MAKE THE IRS DATA DRIVEN?
9:17
WELL, BECAUSE IT’S — I
9:19
CALLED ELON I SAID, ELON, YOU
9:21
ARE UNDER FIRE BECAUSE YOU HAVE
9:23
MOVED PEOPLE’S CHEESE.
9:23
HE SAID WELL, IT’S THE AMERICAN
9:26
PEOPLE’S CHEESE.
9:26
AND IT DOESN’T BELONG TO THESE
9:29
PEOPLE.
9:29
AND, AGAIN, THAT’S WHY I WANTED
9:31
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO MEET SAM.
9:34
WE’RE GOING TO BRING SOME MORE
9:36
DOGE PEOPLE FORWARD TO ACTUALLY
9:37
HEAR THEIR STORIES, SEE WHAT’S
9:39
BEING DONE BECAUSE THE
9:41
CONSULT — THE ENTRENCHED
9:42
INTEREST, THE CONSULTANTS, THE
9:46
DEMOCRATS MAINSTREAM MEDIA, THEY
9:47
JUST WANT TO BLOW THIS PROJECT
9:48
OUT OF THE WATER.
9:51
AND IT’S IMPORTANT BECAUSE I
9:53
KEEP SAYING THIS IS THE OFFICE
9:55
OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY.
9:57
NOT ELIMINATION.
9:58
NOT EXTENSION.
10:00
SAM AND HIS CREW MAKING IT MORE
10:04
EFFICIENT TO WORK FOR THE
10:06
AMERICAN PEOPLE WHAT’S WRONG
10:07
WITH IT WORKING BETTER, CHEAPER,
10:09
FASTER, AND WITH MORE PRIVACY.
10:11
THE PRESIDENT ESSENTIALLY
10:12
SAID HE WANTS EFFICIENCY ACROSS
10:14
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
10:16
HE BROUGHT IN ELON TO DO IT.
10:17
YOU ARE A BIG PART OF THIS.
10:20
IS IT POSSIBLE, GIVEN WHAT YOU
10:21
HAVE SEEN AS FAR AS THE
10:22
RESISTANCE BOTH FROM THE COURTS
10:24
AND IN — AMONGST MOSTLY
10:27
DEMOCRATS.
10:27
HONESTLY, I HAVEN’T REALLY
10:28
HAD MUCH OF AN ISSUE.
10:30
THE CAREER STAFF HAS BEEN SUPER
10:32
COOPERATIVE.
10:32
I THINK WE HAVE SO FAR STOPPED
10:34
WORK AND CUT ABOUT 1.5 BILLION
10:36
FROM THE MODERNIZATION BUDGET.
10:38
MOSTLY PROJECTS.
10:43
DEATH SPIRAL.
10:45
I THINK MOST PEOPLE THAT I HAVE
10:47
INTERACTED WITH ARE REALLY
10:48
EXCITED THAT SOMEBODY ACTUALLY
10:49
CARES NOW.
10:50
THEY HAVE BEEN IN A SITUATION
10:52
WHERE THEIR HANDS ARE TIED AND
10:53
THEY CAN’T SOLVE THE THINGS THEY
10:54
KNOW NEED TO BE SOLVED.
10:56
MY EXPERIENCE HONESTLY HAS BEEN
10:57
VERY POSITIVE WORKING WITH THEM.
10:59
THIS IS BACK TO THE MESSAGING
11:02
POINT.
11:02
HIS HISTORY IN BUSINESS,
11:05
COMMUNICATION IS KEY FROM STAFF
11:07
TO LEADERSHIP, LEADERSHIP TO
11:08
STAFF.
11:09
AND ALSO HERE THE CONSUMER IS
11:11
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE
11:13
TAXPAYER THOSE ARE THE ULTIMATE
11:16
CONSUMERS HERE.
11:17
YOU HAD THIS IDEA TO BRING SAM
11:19
IN.
11:19
PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT
11:21
THIS IS.
11:25
IT’S ALL HANDS ON DECK BECAUSE
11:25
WE GOT THIS MASSIVE GOVERNMENT
11:28
DEBT.
11:28
WE’RE GOING TO PAY THAT DOWN BUT
11:30
WE ARE ALSO TO MAKE GOVERNMENT
11:33
WORK BETTER.
11:33
YOU KNOW, AGAIN.
11:36
IF YOU WERE TO ASK SAM ABOUT THE
11:38
CUSTOMER SUPPORT, IT’S
11:40
UNBELIEVABLE THE SYSTEM, THE
11:42
CUSTOMER SUPPORT, THE SAME
11:43
NUMBER OF PEOPLE WORKING
11:45
CHRISTMAS EVE AS THEY DO ON
11:47
APRIL 1ST AT THE IRS.
11:50
WHY?
11:50
SO, EFFICIENCY ACROSS THE
11:53
BOARD MUST BE IMPLEMENTED.
11:55
IT’S UNFAIR TO THE TAXPAYER WHO
11:56
FOOT THE BILL FOR ALL OF US,
11:58
UNFAIR, RIP OFF.
12:01
WE WANT PEOPLE TO LIKE THE
12:04
GOVERNMENT.
12:04
NO ONE IS GOING TO LIKE THE
12:06
IRS, I’M SORRY.
12:06
WE WANT PEOPLE TO FEEL
12:09
SATISFIED THAT THEY ARE GETTING
12:11
THE SERVICE THEY DESERVE.
12:13
THAT THEY’RE PAYING THEIR FAIR
12:15
SHARE AND MORE NOT LESS.
12:18
AND IT’S DONE QUICKLY, SMARTLY
12:20
AND PRIVATELY.
12:22
Laura: SAM, HOW LONG ARE YOU
12:23
GOING TO STAY IN WASHINGTON?
12:23
COMMITTED TO SIX MONTHS.
12:25
Laura: OKAY.
12:26
ALL RIGHT.
12:26
SAM AND MR. SECRETARY, THANK YOU
12:28
BOTH FOR JOINING US.